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The Grant County Record
in Grant County · Public works committee · 2025-12-02 · full transcript
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    3:54  Okay, let's go ahead and get this called to order.
    3:58  uh public works committee meeting today, December 2nd at 5:22 p.m.
    4:09  Uh committee present myself, Eric Marshall and Mike Klene.
    4:16  We also have in attendance um Robin Shider and Jennifer Wilson, consultant.
    4:24  Today's topic we're going to talk about the um ordinance that was resolution that was proposed ordinance ordinance that was
    4:32  proposed regarding um the review of the water rates uh that we had first reading last meeting.
    4:45  any initial questions that we want to ask while everybody's getting caught up and or do we want to wait and see the
    4:54  presentation again pieces of it? Okay.
    5:05  Could I just add just for the record this is particular general ordinance 30-2025 amending monthly water user rates. So
    5:14  just for the record, thank you. That was what I was looking for. Ordinance 30-2025.
    5:30  Robin, would you want to address just kind of a quick overview of of the ordinance again and the num and the percentages we're talking about?
    5:42  Yes, that's not a problem. Um, I'll share whatever you want me to, but the the brief summary is that um we're
    5:50  looking at the need for an increase of 44.24%
    5:58  above the already approved 2026 rate.
    6:03  And the 2026 rate will go into effect January 1, 2026.
    6:08  That is phase three from the rate increase that was approved in 2023.
    6:22  And then it's already approved for phases four and five to go in effect January 1st to 27 and 28.
    6:30  That's correct. Yeah. and the increase if we accelerated
    6:37  both of those um we that would give us 15.41% and uh we'll need an additional 24.98.
    6:48  So that's where that 44.24 is coming from. Okay.
    7:02  So if we do nothing, those five phases go through regardless.
    7:08  That's true. However, there is a little caveat to that um that we had instructions from the 2023
    7:16  proposal in accepted rate case that we should acquire another uh bond before
    7:24  the end of 2025 or face the potential of having rates reduced further. Um the problem with
    7:32  that is that we can't afford that debt service as it as it is. um let alone with an increase of the debt service.
    7:40  That's that's why we need to request this now.
    7:46  And that's an agreement with the IURCE. Yes, that's correct. Okay.
    7:54  What What is the bond amount that you guys are expected to take?
    8:05  Just push the red button.
    8:07  Yeah. So what happened is that you guys got very favorable rates at your last bond issue and did most of the projects or put most of the projects within that
    8:16  bond issue and so you actually had a little bit of extra capacity but um we weren't able to secure or a loan here in
    8:25  2025. So our debt service I think is about $250,000 less than what we agreed to. And when we
    8:33  went into settlement with the I uh office of the utilities consumer counselor, they said, "Well, this one line item, you will true it up after you
    8:41  issue debt. And if you don't do the debt, then you basically have to lower your rates." Unfortunately, your other operating expenses have increased during
    8:50  that time. So, that's what the caveat is. The problem is is that you're expected to lower your rates at this point because you got such good terms
    8:59  during your last bond issuance, but your operating other operating expenses have gone up $2 million, but we can't offset it against that. Okay?
    9:10  So, if we do this review, we would not have to do the bond issue potentially if they see that those operating expenses have changed.
    9:21  Correct. We're basically trying to do Oh, I don't have to hold it. Okay, there
    9:28  we go. Sorry. Um, yes, we're basically resetting it by putting in a petition by the end of the year. We're basically
    9:36  telling them, hey, we do need a rate increase that will add additional revenues of $1.6 million. And so, please
    9:44  don't reduce down our rates because we're already in front of you asking for 1.6. If you reduce our rates, we're going to be asking you for 1 million850
    9:53  or something higher. So, we're just going to be offsetting whatever they would ask us to reduce it down, but it would put us into a further hole during
   10:00  the year until we get those rates in place. Okay.
   10:06  But with this, was your thought we were going to want to do you guys were going to want to do a bond issue as well?
   10:15  Well, I we have a whole that wasn't specifically [clears throat] the goal here, though. There is a long list of
   10:22  capital improvement projects that we um we would like to get to and part of this would be to you know the the agreement
   10:30  that we made in 2023 Jennifer correct me if I'm wrong but uh they had required us to set money aside to grow our capital
   10:38  improvement funds [clears throat] and the rate that we have in place has not
   10:46  been sufficient to let us build those funds and so that just continues to put us further and further behind on the capital improvement issues that we have.
   10:55  So that's one of the reasons why we need the rate increase also is to be able to set aside that money year-over-year so that we can plan for these larger
   11:03  projects that we really need to complete.
   11:07  Can you clarify who they is? They told us to set aside money. Who's that?
   11:12  IURC. Yes. So you go through a process to raise your rates. you come here first and have the city council vote on it and
   11:19  then you're under the Indiana Utility Regulatory uh Commission jurisdiction.
   11:24  So then you make a petition to the IURC for a rate case to be placed in front of
   11:30  them. And so then it starts a process where we then file testimony, pre-written testimony. Um, and then the
   11:37  office of the utility consumer counselor will review our work and they're basically working the other side of of
   11:44  of trying to keep the rates as low as possible. We come to an agreement with them, we hope, and then we present our
   11:51  settlement to the IURC. If our I don't expect our case to be fully litigated, but there's the possibility it could be fully litigated. and that's when we
   12:00  would go in front of the judges at the Indiana Utility Regulatory Commission and fully litigate the case. I I hope
   12:08  that does not happen. Um it did not happen in the last rate case that we were able to reach settlement with the Office of the Utility Consumer Counselor
   12:16  present a a proposal to the IRC and then the IRC accepted that proposal that settlement and the rates were put into place um in October of 2023.
   12:32  Can you remind us when phase one and two rate increases were put in and what those amounts were?
   12:39  It was October of 2023. Sorry, I don't remember the exact percentages. It was a full uh 45% over a 5year time period.
   12:48  And then the second rate increase went into effect January 1st of 2025. And you'll have another rate increase go into effect here January 2026.
   12:58  Unfortunately, I don't have the the actual across the board rate increases on those, but um yeah, so you've already
   13:06  gone into that 45%. I would say maybe probably about 30% of that 45% is is being implemented by January 1st, 2026.
   13:17  I hope I presume this is a dress rehearsal for what you're going to tell the public when they come in at the next meeting, right?
   13:24  Correct. so that they can hear all of this. That's in the presentation.
   13:28  Yes, I have a full presentation from the that I can go to the last meeting. Whatever. We're not the only ones to hear that. Okay. True.
   13:35  I will let you know, Councilman Klein, it is being streamed and recorded as well. So, this was public record.
   13:42  Yeah. And we and we did share all of this two weeks ago as as well.
   14:02  other initial questions. Did we get the presentation to stream? Yes. Okay.
   14:13  Okay. So, while he's doing that, to summarize what information to make sure we're all on the same page,
   14:20  this process was done, I assume, in late 2021 to get an agreement for 2023 or in 2022 for 2023.
   14:29  It it was done in 2022 and we filed the case in January of 23 and then we had rates in place um an agreement by August and the rates were in place by October.
   14:39  Okay. So, this was done 2022 uh first phase in October, second one
   14:48  just this year and then the next one for January one coming up in less than a month.
   14:54  And then so what we're hoping to do is rather than do the next two years of increases and then look at it is to
   15:04  accelerate to get that additional amount in in 27 I assume and then have the new rates.
   15:11  Yeah, we the next set of phases from there.
   15:13  Yeah, we would hope whenever the when whenever we get an order from the commission, which we would hope by October, if it follows the same
   15:21  timeline, we would have um our case filed here in December and we would hopefully have rates in place by August
   15:27  of 2026 and then we would accelerate those 27 28 and also have that additional 25% on top of that
   15:36  implemented at that point in time in one phase. Okay.
   15:41  So even though you're saying you're requesting a 44% 15 of that is already
   15:47  phases four and five and so it's really only another 25% versus the 45% that was approved in 23. Correct.
   15:57  So you're talking 45 and then an additional 25%. Correct. Okay.
   16:04  Is it 25 or 29? What's the It's 24.98. So I I rounded to 25.
   16:11  I wasn't sure how much the 0.02 equated into pennies. So So I heard 44 then 15 and then I'm
   16:18  subtracting in my head. So we're at well and and keep in mind too that this is our request,
   16:27  not necessarily what they will approve, but they're not going to go over that amount. So it's it's almost like a not to exceed kind of request.
   16:42  You want me to move forward? Tell me which way which way you want to go. Yep.
   16:47  All right. So, this page just really tells you how I went about going uh preparing the report. We looked at a
   16:53  test year ending June 30th of 2025 and compared the years 24, year end 24 and 23. And we looked at your balance sheet,
   17:01  income statement, and your statement of fund balances and debt service. We made adjustments for fixed known and net measurable items as of June 30th, 2025.
   17:09  And then we come up with your operation and maintenance, your debt service, your debt service reserve funding, um adding to the operating fund reserve buildup,
   17:18  repaying the loan to sewer, and then have cash available for ongoing capital expenses.
   17:25  Next slide.
   17:29  We've been talking about this. There's two components of the rate increase.
   17:32  We're moving forward. the two phases that are already in uh that are due to come into effect on the uh January 1st
   17:41  27 and January 1st 28 and also requesting an additional approximately 25% on top of that.
   17:52  This really shows the uh what Robin was talking about. Your blue item over these test year uh 23 is the one on the left,
   18:00  24 is in the middle and June 30th, 2025 is on the right. The blue line is your revenue and the yellow line is your debt
   18:07  service and operating expenses. So you can see our expenses of debt service and operating expenses have been exceeding
   18:15  our revenue each of those years. And so we have not been able to do any capital
   18:22  expense uh funding out of uh revenues that are coming in uh on an annual basis. So we're basically been depleting
   18:30  all of our cash funds. And so that's what happens um that differential you're reducing down your operating fund and
   18:38  that is why you needed to request a loan from the sewage works.
   18:43  Can I ask a question while this fresh my mind and looking at this, but why the $1.8 million alone? Help me understand
   18:51  the 1.8 when really it's a $200,000 difference, $400,000.
   18:58  That was an 800 back in 2023. But how long was the 1.8 million supposed to kind of hold you at bay until you got something approved?
   19:09  Right. The 1.8 8 million went into effect earlier this year and you're not expected to it the the process as I
   19:16  explained it is a rather lengthy process and so we're not expected to have rates in place at least till September or
   19:22  October of next year. So you need to have those funds in order to the water utility to operate and make payments and
   19:31  do everything between now and then when we get the order.
   19:36  Yeah, I get that. I'm just understanding the why the 1.8 It seems like a large amount when we're really only a couple hundred
   19:44  thousand off between revenue and operating expense. Just kind of trying to understand. That's all.
   19:50  So, just a quick anecdotal story uh that might help illustrate this. Um if you guys recall, I think it was the fall of
   19:58  2023 uh the Kim Road incident where we had six unmentionable events. I can't even
   20:06  say that in a public meeting. Sorry, it's a little superstitious, but we had six such events within about a 30-hour
   20:13  period. And the bill for that, or at least what was easily accounted for, there are other expenses on top of this
   20:22  which are less or that are more complicated to come by, but it was upwards of $300,000.
   20:28  So in other words, if there's not at least a little bit in the bank there, if we've got any kind of catastrophic event
   20:36  whatsoever, we are we are in a serious serious pickle.
   20:42  All right, that that helps answer the question. So if there's any money left out of the 1.8, that will automatically
   20:50  go back to the um wastewater. Correct. Okay.
   20:55  Correct. And also that loan is also supposed to be paid back over a four-year time period according to how we set it up in our um case to the IURC.
   21:08  You you can divert funds to pay it back faster, but we have set it up for being a four-year. Um we're expecting it at
   21:15  least the balance you're going to pull down at least 1.2 million of that 1.8 um is our estimate before uh new rates are put into place. Great. Thank you.
   21:30  All right.
   21:34  So, uh what we do the the item on the left is your test year and the blue is your operating expenses and the yellow
   21:41  is your taxes other than income taxes and we make adjustments of things that we know are coming up in 2026. We made
   21:49  about 832,000 of adjustments and that includes adding $265,000
   21:56  for a payment in lie of taxes that would be paid to the city. Um there's increases in salaries and wages, bad
   22:03  debts, contractual expenses, rate cases, a rate case expense, and purchase power and insurance. Rounds out the rest of
   22:10  the items that are increasing are expected to increase in 2026.
   22:18  This page shows the difference between the test year and the previous filing and what it is now. So the one on the
   22:26  right is what was approved and that was using a test year of March 31st of 2022.
   22:32  And we are allowed just a little bit under $4 million for operating um expenses and taxes other than income
   22:40  taxes. What we're asking for in this case is an amount of $6,50,000.
   22:46  So, there has been a $2 million increase in expenses, operating expenses, and taxes other than income taxes from the prior case to where we are now.
   23:01  Question on that or go ahead.
   23:04  I'm just trying to make sure I understand what I'm hearing. So, and maybe or maybe I need you to explain that a little bit differently.
   23:14  Yeah. Can you just explain like are you saying that it was estimated to have about four million but it end up being about $6 million?
   23:25  Correct. It was in March of 2022.
   23:29  We estimated that our operating expenses would be about $4 million.
   23:34  There's been a lot of inflation that's happened since March 31st of 2022. And thus, our operating expenses have
   23:40  increased by $2 million since that time period.
   23:46  This is a this is where there's a sticking point for me on this.
   23:51  I don't understand how you're off $2 million. That's 50% of your budget. So, how do how are we off $2 million within
   23:59  two years? Inflation wasn't that rampant, was it? Well, so for example, um the cost of chlorine, we buy those in
   24:08  ton cylinders. And uh when we were looking at the first rate increase, the price tag was around $400 per cylinder.
   24:17  And now it's like $2,000 or just over $2,000 a cylinder. So that's that's the kind of, you know, five-fold increase,
   24:25  four-fold, fivefold increase that we're talking about over some of our supplies.
   24:30  uh those inflation rates, those back-to-back years of inflation rates uh wre havoc with our supply chain and some of our other suppliers. The other thing
   24:39  is uh one of our largest expenses in the water department is lime for the lime softening. Um, and I know that that's
   24:48  been a major bonus for the entire community in keeping the water uh to a
   24:55  level of quality that is appreciated and, you know, doesn't require every citizen to have a water softener in
   25:02  their home. Um, but that's nearly a million dollars a year based on this year's
   25:10  chemical bids. And so that's a that's significant just by itself. And you those increases in that. Um, that's pretty huge.
   25:20  It also is part of the process of what we do in taking the case at the IURC where we can only project out expenses
   25:28  for one year. So, it does kind of make you come back on a regular basis. Um, unless you have an expense that's
   25:35  falling off. So, previously you were able to way a large increase or an increase. You didn't have one from 2005
   25:44  to 2021 or 2022 because at that time you had debt service and it rolled off. And so then as your operating expenses
   25:52  increased and your debt service decreased, you were able to still maintain and be able to run the utility.
   26:00  When this case was settled, we didn't have any of that leeway. They were very stringent on how we were doing the debt service. As I explained, we can't take
   26:08  advantage that you guys got a a lower interest rate, a better deal on the the bonds. We can't offset that with the
   26:16  increases with the operating expenses because of the deal that was made with this in settlement to get your rates in place last time.
   26:27  I have a question, Madam Chair.
   26:30  Yes. Um I'm I'm kind of along the same line as as Nick on the $2 million increase on
   26:38  operating expenses. You also Jennifer said that you were compensating for increase on salaries and wages. Have you
   26:46  recommended any cuts in their budget to or identified any
   26:53  place where you can cut or freeze wages or I mean I understand the cost of living but other than that I I see that
   27:01  we keep raising rates and raising rates and we we had a plan of 15 15% and now
   27:08  we're we're adding an additional 25% but that initial plan at 15.41 41. I understand it's a projection, but it's pretty far off as far as a projection.
   27:19  I'm not saying it was your company, Crow, but ever since I've been on the city council since 2020.
   27:25  The water department and solid waste and sewage department is taken out of their cash reserves to balance their budget.
   27:33  The first year that I came on, when I get a budget from the water department, they're taking $600,000 out of their
   27:40  cash reserves to balance their budget, which I understand the process of that in creating a budget if you've got cash
   27:48  reserves. But if your your income is not enough to exceed your expenses at
   27:55  some point in time, I would expect you're going to have to cut back or identify some place to where you can cut
   28:03  expenses because the volume is not going to increase anytime soon. I that I see most
   28:12  of most of it's decreasing if I look at the volume charts correctly on what we're selling as far as water and sewage
   28:20  and solid waste on customers. So if you identified any of that as far as cutting cost and freezing wages because we had
   28:28  to deal the same thing with Senate Bill one. We couldn't give any raises. We couldn't even give the cost of living because we understood that our budget
   28:36  was what we had and we didn't want to take out of cash reserves in case something catastrophic happened. So I
   28:44  would entertain any information along those lines that you could share with us
   28:50  to justify almost two-fold increasing from 15% to 44%.
   28:58  To justify that I understand the projections and the usage and your operating expenses but it is quite a
   29:07  bit. I mean, you know, on on if it was underproed, then there's a problem with the accounting.
   29:16  So, I'm just kind of curious since 2020 when I came on, they've always pulled out of their
   29:22  their general fund to balance the budget. So, could you enlighten me on anything on that?
   29:30  Well, I guess I c I can add a little bit and then and Jennifer can probably add some more. Um,
   29:37  in 2013 and 14, we did a capital improvement project uh to replace and
   29:45  upgrade our filters at the water plant on site there. That project was not paid for with a bond, but was paid for with
   29:53  cash. And from that time, or shortly thereafter, we began depleting our cash
   30:00  reserves. Um when I became assistant director in 2015 I noticed that there was a deficit on a monthly basis it was
   30:09  a five-digit number and since that time it has steadily increased such that at this point in
   30:16  time our cash reserves have effectively been depleted entirely. Um with regard
   30:23  to reducing our staff I suppose in theory that is an option.
   30:29  Uh, but I will say that we've found it to be more cost prohibitive to hire out the things that we need to do rather
   30:38  than to employ the folks, the workforce that we need for the repairs and whatnot. Um, it's it's much more
   30:44  expensive for us to contract things, you know, and and one of those examples is um the Kim Road experience that we had
   30:53  uh because it was 30 solid hours back to back to back. We were forced to contract part of that out simply because of safety reasons. We couldn't have our
   31:01  guys out there for 30 solid hours uh using cutting tools and digging equipment. Um and so that was one of the reasons that that drove that cost up.
   31:10  Had those been spread out over a period of days or a couple weeks, our crews would have been able to manage that for
   31:17  a much smaller dollar amount. And so those are a couple things that that have been contributing factors to that.
   31:27  What I was going to point out is on the next slide it does give you a breakdown of what your operating expenses break down into where your employee costs are 47%.
   31:38  Uh the next largest thing is contractual service at 16, chemicals are 12% and then you can see the rest of them um
   31:46  materials and supply at 8% uh purchase power at 6% of the entire budget.
   31:56  One, one moment.
   31:59  So, chemicals 12 that'd be the chlorine and lime. Correct.
   32:10  Well, I guess seeing that at 12% it probably makes me ask more questions.
   32:15  So 6 million 12% that's $720,000 out of that for chemicals
   32:24  but we're needing to increase it 2 million. So So the total chemical budget is 720,000
   32:32  not the increase but we're we're off 2 million. So where do where is it on another slide where in the 2 million is
   32:40  there a breakdown of percentage increase for each of these categories? So, where where is this $2 million going in this pie?
   32:48  Right, of that $2 million, um I don't have a pie to show you on there, but I did summarize it about uh between the
   32:57  four prior test year back in 2022. So, in four years, [cough] salaries and wages and benefits accounts for 740,000.
   33:07  Contractual services is about 300,000.
   33:10  Materials and supply is 200. The pilot is 265,
   33:16  insurance 140, chemicals went up 127, bad debt is 128, and the rate case expenses is 70.
   33:27  That generally is the differential between what was happening in your prior test year and what's happening in the projected test year.
   33:41  Okay. I'm [clears throat] just trying to understand with the two million though, like what I'm sure it's all spread around that
   33:49  pile a little bit, but where was the most significant cost increase from the 400 to the 6 million that's causing this?
   33:58  Yes. Request.
   33:59  So, it's the it's that it's those items that I talked about. Salaries and wages is 7. Yeah, that's $740,000
   34:07  between the prior test year and the current test year. $740,000 increase in salaries and wages. 300,000.
   34:14  Wait, hold on a second. So, you're telling me $740,000 more for salaries on top of what we were paying from the test year to now
   34:23  from 20 March of 2022 to what's projected next year.
   34:28  How would he go up $740,000 in three years in wages? Well, that's actually it's four years. Four four years.
   34:36  Four years. Whatever. But help me understand this. That's that's the increase or the total expenditure for salaries.
   34:45  That's the increase between those two test years.
   34:48  So, is this rate increase to pay for chemicals or salary?
   34:54  Chemicals went up $127,000 between those two test years.
   35:00  But what I'm being told is that this is being driven a lot by chemicals, but I'm just not. It sounds more like employee costs.
   35:13  The employee costs also include things like the benefits such as health insurance. And I know the quotes that we
   35:19  got this year um for for next year's budget, they originally shot us 30% increase. Uh it turned out that we got
   35:27  that closer to 20. That's an average um because we offer two different pans. And so it's it's not just a wage situation.
   35:36  It's it's the whole package deal that that's inclusive of.
   35:42  Could you tell me what your total expenses for employee wages and all the associated insurance just for water?
   35:53  So you said 740,000 increase, but what's the total out of the 6 million?
   36:07  I I will say 2025 this calendar year I think or last year.
   36:14  I wrote I wrote some notes down. I think it's $2,260 uh,000 as salaries and wages, but don't
   36:22  quote me exactly on that. That might not include some of the FICA and employee benefits, but basically [snorts] 2,250,000 is salaries and wages.
   36:33  That's prior to the $740,000 increase that you're requesting, I believe. So, yeah. So, we're going to go to
   36:41  two about three million in salaries and wages with with this increase. Correct.
   36:47  Correct. That does Yes, that does appear to which follows along with the idea that
   36:55  uh approximately 50% of your budget there is salaries and wages and benefits.
   37:03  Sorry to take time. Could you would you able to email all of us that those in p that numbers you gave with the for the
   37:11  dollar amount for each category increase. Yes. Get that to us. That'd be great. Thank you.
   37:17  And is is that on are you doing each department separately?
   37:22  I'm just asking for water right now because that's what they're requesting. Okay.
   37:25  But but they're going to come back to us for waste water and solid waste.
   37:31  Well, I mean that's you if you want to ask that. Yeah. That's in the projection this fall, correct?
   37:39  Potentially. Yes. Those the plans for the wastewater scenario are still up in the air. Um we that's too soon to to
   37:47  have the numbers ready for for those projections. I mean, we have everything for the 2026 budgets and we I mean, we're happy to share those. We should be
   37:55  passing those on Thursday at our board meeting.
   38:00  Yeah. And and I wasn't I wasn't uh um asking where you could cut jobs. I was
   38:09  just more curious on identifying cutting expenses or freezing wages and salaries
   38:16  like we had to do instead of increasing it $740,000.
   38:24  I mean, I would love to do that if we could increase our property taxes. we could give raises, but we couldn't even
   38:30  give public safety any raises. So, that's where I was at. And ju Jennifer, I was also I didn't know if if uh you
   38:39  were thinking about it or you could get that information to me on is there anywhere in in the budget where we could
   38:47  cut expenses to alleviate some of the rate increase on to the taxpayers as far as the water bill. I mean, it it was
   38:55  hard enough to swallow the uh 15% that we uh implemented over the five-stage
   39:02  plan, and I caught a lot of slack over that from taxpayers and constituents, and now we're going to raise it another
   39:09  25% or accelerate it. And it seems like to me, not only chemicals on a small scale of 12%.
   39:18  But it's majority of increase in wages.
   39:22  Am I correct on that or Can you correct me if I'm wrong on that or?
   39:29  Well, I guess the differential there of as we as we talked about from the prior test year of year end close to year end
   39:38  2021 to what we project over sixyear time period the wages have gone up $742,000.
   39:47  That is that is an accurate statement of that 2 million differential. 700,000 is of that $2 million.
   39:55  Is that based on the cost of just the cost of living increase of what 2 what is it 8% 2.8% 2.4% what
   40:05  the the board has agreed uh several years ago that they would go with the national cost of living increase and so
   40:12  like for this year the 2.8 uh was the recommendation for the 2026 budgets. How many employees do you have?
   40:21  Just water?
   40:23  No, everybody. Because I'm I believe it's 87. Some of those are part-time and water. Could you tell me water?
   40:32  Yes, I can. In this moment, I don't have that number off the top of my head. And and some of the employees are divided.
   40:39  For example, um as the utility director, I'm divided by four utilities, not equally. I think I explained during the
   40:48  last council meeting that our process when someone crisscrosses multiple utilities is to do a percentage
   40:56  basis um looking at the revenues. And so the lion share of those expenses um
   41:04  would come from wastewater first, then from drinking water, and then the other two utilities are are smaller percentages of revenue there.
   41:16  Mike, you still have a question.
   41:18  I got a qu and it's not necessarily We're talking about increases and we're talking about the the things costing more.
   41:30  So, if we have down the road a water guzzling project that's going to cost more
   41:37  in in chemicals and this and that, is this going to protect us from coming back and say, "Hey, that was then, this
   41:45  is now." Is this going to protect us in any way?
   41:50  What we're looking at right now is independent completely of any economic projections or anything like that in the future.
   41:59  Um the bottom line as we've kind of pointed out um through the discussion already is we we kicked the can for a
   42:06  long time. Um I wasn't the director for for this duration of this time but I will expect accept complete
   42:15  responsibility as the utility director now that from 2005 to 2023
   42:22  we should have been having more of these conversations.
   42:25  um that that that should have been something we revisited more often because in depleting our reserves, we uh
   42:34  chose not to complete any additional capital improvement projects. And now as we look at the system, it it has
   42:42  continued to age. It has continued uh to have the same wear and tear on it, but is needing more attention in certain
   42:50  areas. So even if the status quo was maintained, this is something that we need that we feel like could get us to a
   42:56  point of making us whole. But as prices continue to go up and the economy continues to change, it's something that
   43:03  we'll need to look at on a regular basis. Um, and I think I had shared with you guys that a three-year period is is
   43:11  probably a wise thing. And now that's not to say that we would always be asking for an increase, but it would be uh presenting the facts of the situation
   43:20  and an analysis of that so that we know exactly where we stand rather rather than waiting for that long period of time. And if there were to be an
   43:28  economic situation in the future that dramatically changed and increased our water revenue there, again, if we're
   43:35  looking at this on a three-year rotation, we'd be able to say, "Okay, we don't need a rate increase or Maybe we need to adjust it downward,
   43:44  which would be a little bit unusual, but um you know, depending on what the circumstances were, that could be possible as well.
   43:53  Can we Nick, would you roll back a couple slides?
   43:58  Um no, too far. The next one there. Yeah.
   44:08  So when it says approved, what year is that that that was approved at the four million?
   44:15  Correct. That was using a March 31st, 2022. Okay.
   44:21  Adjusted only for one year's worth of expenses. So is adjusted to March 2023, but your rates then weren't put into
   44:30  effect till October of 2023. Okay. And then the adjusted one showing the six million. Is that what the current budget amount is being approved for 2026?
   44:43  It probably is close. Yes. I mean, we started this process a little bit ago using a test year June 30th and I know they're just finishing up their budget
   44:52  now, but that was the plan is to try to look forward for a year of things that we could adjust that we know are coming.
   45:01  What have local manufacturers had to say about this?
   45:06  What What do you What specifically do you mean?
   45:08  I don't know. I mean, I mean, we got manufacturing here that uses lots of water.
   45:14  So, our industrial customers, we we haven't really heard anything from industrial customers about this. As a matter of fact, um just keeping an eye
   45:22  on social media from two weeks ago when this was presented publicly, um we've we've had fairly small amount of commentary at all.
   45:32  So, I guess where I was going was this $2 million increase is over a four-year period of time is what we're looking at.
   45:41  So, it's a 50% increase over a four-year budget cycle. Correct. Yes.
   45:54  What are you guys going to do if this doesn't pass?
   46:01  That's a good question. Um, honestly, we're we're in a pretty dire situation
   46:07  right now. Um, to cut people would be to cut further our resources and require
   46:15  additional contracting. Um, and I'm not sure that that's going to offset equally there. Um,
   46:24  we would we would have to begin exploring other options.
   46:30  potentially looking at uh no longer lime softening. That that could be an option.
   46:36  I have I have not done any research to this point on what it would uh do to our operating costs. Um
   46:45  there's there's not a whole lot more that we could do to the treatment process itself. Um, you know, there have been some
   46:53  communities that have sold uh to private companies. When that happens, there's an immediate rate
   47:01  increase that's much more significant than what we're talking about here. Um,
   47:09  other than that, I would I would have to go back to the drawing board and get really creative.
   47:16  Kai, as a question back on the salaries, you said 2.26 26 million in salaries and wages.
   47:22  That's including benefits. Was that was that 2024 or 2025?
   47:30  That was the test year ending June 30th, 2025.
   47:36  So that's what we're projected. That's what you're projected to pay in salaries and wages this year is 2.26 million.
   47:42  that well that was what was paid between July 1st 2024 and June 30th of 2025 and
   47:49  then we have an additional 740,000 on top of that that we're projecting to include to increase for the rest of 2025 increases and for the 2026 increases.
   48:01  So it's July to July. So July 2024 to July 2025 is 2.2 2 million
   48:08  and you're saying July 2025 to July 2026 is three million in salaries and wages. Is that what I'm hearing?
   48:15  It's really close. Um you got the first part right? But the the 3 million is really what we're projecting forward for
   48:22  the full year of January to December of 2026.
   48:26  We but we're really either way it's a 12-month rolling period I'm talking about. So, I get what you're saying, but year to
   48:34  year, 365 days, even with a couple month gap there, we're going from 2.2 to three million in salaries and wages.
   48:42  It's it's a year and a half really. I mean, because Yeah. So, we you had a rate increase January 1st, 2025. So, we had to project out the last six months.
   48:51  So, we get us to January of 2026. And then we get to show the rate increase for 2026 as well. So, our test year is
   48:59  goes through July 1st of 2025 and then we get to project out what the full year of 2026 is going to be.
   49:07  But your test year is still a year, correct? 365 days. It is still a year.
   49:12  So, your test year, which is based on actual data, correct? Correct.
   49:18  Money spent versus what you're projecting the full calendar year next year. It's going from 2.26 26 million to 3 million.
   49:27  That is correct. Correct.
   49:28  Yeah. But I guess I just want to make sure that you don't discount that you had a 2025 rate increase as well. So
   49:35  it's not just saying one year to the next. You're actually increase. It's Well, I'm not asking about rate
   49:43  increases. I'm talking about what we're spending on salaries and wages. Yes. Expenditures for salaries and wages.
   49:49  That's it. because I'm really trying to understand where all this money is going to go and what's the main purpose of it.
   49:56  I was under the assumption that this was mostly chemicals and and all that and co cost of living
   50:02  with a $2.26 million budget for 2.8% is about $63,000 increase year-over-year.
   50:10  But you're saying we need 740,000.
   50:13  So either we need to change health insurance carriers over there or these numbers don't make sense.
   50:19  We've gone shopping each year for the health insurance scenarios. Um I would be wide open to more uh affordable
   50:29  suggestions. We we took the option that that we that was the most affordable one.
   50:35  Did the So I guess the question would be out of the 740 it would be lovely to know the breakdown of out of that how
   50:43  much of that is going to salaries and wages versus health insurance or miscellaneous benefits. That would help us understand
   50:52  a lot because just the the cola increase doesn't the math doesn't math. Yeah, we can we can get that.
   51:03  Just my opinion, these kind of increases, this would put any business out of put you out of business. Anybody,
   51:11  Nick, your salary increases for your staff, that would put you out of business.
   51:18  I put me out of business where I work.
   51:23  I I I think the wages are out of control.
   51:31  My opinion, I don't I don't know.
   51:37  We participate pretty regularly in a wage comparison study um with other utility companies across the state of
   51:44  Indiana. Um we've always tried to shoot for somewhat of that middle position and that's that's pretty close to where we
   51:52  are. Um there's probably a study out there right now. Um AWWA puts out the
   51:59  water study for that. We can take a look and share that information if you'd be interested in seeing it.
   52:07  If you just get the breakdown of the 740, that'd be great for me.
   52:15  And the health insurance aside, I mean, that can be a discussion as well, but I don't know. I know purchasing power with
   52:24  less people for health insurance always makes it higher. Um, and so that may be something that we should discuss down
   52:32  the road too if not being able to maybe combine the groups to benefit both the
   52:39  city and the utility as far as health insurance goes might be an option too.
   52:44  And I'm that's off the cuff without any research or anything standing behind that. But adding our numbers to almost another hundred people,
   52:53  that would only help us as well as a city as far as being able to get better
   53:00  rates. Um, that may be something that we need to research as a as a council, too.
   53:08  Um, so I'm looking at the drafted report, rate report, um, that looks like
   53:15  it came from Crow and it's talking about the statement of incomes, but it's adds in what the salary and wages and
   53:23  benefits are. Um, what I'm looking at
   53:30  even with benefits is about a million and a half dollars for a year.
   53:37  in the water area. So that's where I think I'm with Nick that I'm not sure the math is coming up right that I would
   53:46  I question maybe that that increase is not correct or is got
   53:52  some bad projections in it um as far as what salary goes um
   54:01  or at least I hope so. But um a Considering that you probably didn't do more than cola over the last few years, cola has been very very low.
   54:14  Um I don't doubt that expenses have gone up quite a bit. We've all seen that. We all know what that has done as far as fuel
   54:21  goes as far as chemicals and things of that nature. Um and then we talked a little bit, I know
   54:29  you mentioned the pilot. Has that been paid every year for the last three years or is that something that's newly being put into the budget?
   54:40  That's something new for the budget for this year. Okay.
   54:53  Other was that pilot a recommendation from anybody or did you just put it in there for
   55:01  Yeah. So the pilot um how it was calculated was taking the total water utility plant assets and multiplying it
   55:09  by the corporate tax rate. That's that's the normal IURC way of accepted way of how the pilot is calculated
   55:16  because we haven't received that. I don't think we've received it since I've been a councilman since 2020. So why all of a sudden are you putting in a pilot for us?
   55:25  My thought was with the Senate Bill One difficulties and knowing that the city was um struggling with some of the
   55:33  things there that perhaps we could come to a a place where we could help one another out a little bit. Um and this is
   55:42  something that we could ina put in place. Um, you know, as we do discuss other rate increases going forward, that
   55:51  could be a discussion um for wastewater and storm water as well if it needed to be. Um, as as we come to those
   56:02  have a question uh on that kind of line of topic there um with the pilot and I appreciate you throwing that in there.
   56:12  Um, it's more of a legal question. Hopefully
   56:18  somebody can knows the answer to, but
   56:21  [clears throat]
   56:22  being that the utilities is essentially part of the city of Marian,
   56:29  why does the city of Marian get build for wastewater or the the runoff
   56:38  from essentially its own utility entity? Is that required by law? I'm just just
   56:46  seems weird that we get build $170,000 a year for storm water runoff from
   56:55  essentially like our own utilities. Just help me understand the legal side of that.
   56:59  Yeah. So, it's my understanding that all the cost is split by all the users no matter who they are. So since the city, if you're talking about storm water
   57:08  utility, the city has a lot of paved roads or parking lots and so it's creating quite a bit of runoff and so to
   57:16  share the costs with all the other users of the utility. You you don't look at who they are and you don't give a
   57:24  discount and actually entities have been written up by the state board of accounts for doing such.
   57:31  So that is something that um is is given that each utility serves all of the customers no matter if it's owned by the parent company of the city of Marian.
   57:43  So you're saying it's illegal to not charge your own city. I I'm not an attorney, but I'm I I say that I have
   57:52  looked this up recently um because another utility um and city council were considering the same idea and I located
   57:59  quite a bit um state board of accounts audits where utilities were basically written up and had a bad finding in their audit because they weren't
   58:07  charging the city for the services that was provided by the utility.
   58:12  Okay. I just know we have vacant lots the city owns that from my understanding we're getting charged and all that water just goes into the
   58:21  grass and the soil, but we're paying for water that's just going back into mother nature. So, I'm just trying to understand. So, we talk about the pilot.
   58:30  We're paying 170,000 I think approximately for that a year.
   58:35  And so, that would be maybe one reason I'd be in support of the pilot just to get our money back for from our own
   58:44  utility department. So, I just wanted to get clarity, you know, can we just eliminate that so we can avoid a pilot?
   58:52  Trying to figure out options to to not have to do a pilot. That's all.
   59:17  Is there I mean is there additional in the presentation that we should touch on since we kind of stopped you at the
   59:25  breakdown of the six million and really caught into you on that. Well, I actually I do want to clarify now that
   59:32  I'm looking at my notes. Um I think I misspoke that your salaries and wages were going up 3 million. Um, I think
   59:39  your salaries and wages are going to $2,260,000.
   59:44  That $742 was the differential between 2022 finances and our future year. So, I
   59:52  made a mistake there by adding that. Um, but I will still get you that data, but it's not $3 million.
 1:00:03  That's what I that's what I had written down in in some quick notes. 2.26. Yes.
 1:00:11  Yes. I'm sorry. Correct. That's for a calendar. That is for a 12-month time period. Yes.
 1:00:16  With your salary increases and I believe cost of living. I believe that is the number after that. Yes.
 1:00:22  Are the salary increases automatic?
 1:00:26  The cost of living decision was made by the board to be automatic January 1st. Merit increases are not automatic.
 1:00:33  They're also capped. And so there's only so many that you can receive before there is a cap on that. What's your cap?
 1:00:40  It's eight steps. So it would take a person eight years to reach a cap in a particular job.
 1:00:49  And um I can tell you that our lowest paid employees uh that are full-time
 1:00:56  honestly we're we're struggling to stay ahead of of fast food restaurants.
 1:01:02  So the wages are are not exorbitant in that regard at all. Um we felt it important that a job like working for
 1:01:10  the utilities would stay ahead of nothing against McDonald's. Sure.
 1:01:16  Um or Wendy's or any of those places, but that we could stay uh ahead of of some of the fast food places.
 1:01:22  Could you get me a number on how many are on your insurance plan?
 1:01:26  I can do that. I know you said that there's 87 employees with the water department, but I'm really curious on to see how many are on your insurance plan.
 1:01:35  I actually have that written down from the last meeting because I was curious about that, too. And they did list the
 1:01:40  numbers. Um there is
 1:01:48  there's 14 that are on the lower plan and then there's
 1:02:01  approximately 53 that are on the um the PO. So they've got a PO that's got a
 1:02:07  $2,000 deductible with a 6,000 family Um and the monthly premium roughly is
 1:02:14  about 12 almost 1300 a month for their insurance. Um that's before what the
 1:02:22  utility covers versus what the employee does their amount. And then there's there's a high deductible plan which is
 1:02:29  a $6,200 deductible 12,400 for the family. And that's running um
 1:02:40  looks like on average about 20 to 2200 a month.
 1:02:45  Is that for the whole water department or just that's for the whole utility?
 1:02:48  Whole utility. [clears throat] So and employees pay 15% of that which means that the cost of living increase
 1:02:55  is not maintaining with the insurance increases. Mhm.
 1:02:59  Um because I'm showing that for the family, the difference this year is going to be
 1:03:06  an additional um $40 a pay increase. So yeah, I wrote all that down
 1:03:14  because I was curious to see how heavy the insurance was and that's what it started doing my mind of. Do we need to start combining numbers and and getting
 1:03:22  better rates for everybody? Um because that as someone who has to pay for family insurance that's a rough a rough amount to be paying.
 1:03:34  Sure.
 1:03:34  So um so I kind of feel like that number is
 1:03:43  you're probably if you would look at that a little closer I bet that's more benefits than salaries based on what I'm seeing from some of the salary stuff.
 1:03:52  I'm not seeing huge numbers in wages going up. if I'm seeing it in the benefit side
 1:04:04  and just I I will give you the breakdown of the numbers I was giving but in the report if you want to look at adjustment six on page 11.
 1:04:25  So what I listed there is the all the salaries and wages as by department of the water utility. I show pro-forma of
 1:04:33  1,715,559 less the test year of 1,665,589.
 1:04:43  So the total increase in salaries and wages and in the between the two time periods is about $50,000.
 1:04:50  So to your point you're uh a lot of that and I was talking about a $2.2 $2 million. 1.7 million of that is the
 1:04:58  actual salaries and wages and the rest of it is what I had accumulated in some other kind of benefits either PEF or FICA or health insurance. I'm not sure.
 1:05:09  I'm going to have to pull that number together for you. But if you wanted to just look at salaries and wages, it's shown there on adjustment six.
 1:05:18  And the PEF has not gone up from what I understand. Um, do your employees pay the 3% required amount?
 1:05:28  That's correct. Okay.
 1:05:30  Yes. And the PEF numbers have not changed. Uh, voluntary contributions are what they are, but nothing that the utility and and the mandatory stuff has changed.
 1:05:39  Okay.
 1:05:49  And would you mind if you're as you're pulling numbers, could you pull the history of your chemicals the last couple years and just show what the bid
 1:05:57  amount was and what you actually spent and we could see that year over year, too. Um,
 1:06:06  and I'd be curious to see that with your contractual services as well, year-over-year.
 1:06:21  I'm sure that's in your accounting and you just have to hit the reports. Yes, we can pull that. Yes. Okay.
 1:06:30  other questions that you guys have or you want them to push forward on the slides a couple
 1:06:37  slides to see what other questions come up.
 1:06:43  I don't have any. I'll keep moving the slides, but if we could wrap up in 20 minutes so we can I need to switch between meetings. That's all.
 1:06:50  Yep.
 1:06:52  What we're showing here is your debt service funding. Originally, uh, I talked about how in our previous case,
 1:06:59  we had requested for a couple of bond issues, and we had estimated your total debt to be at $932,000.
 1:07:07  You can see here, um, it's at $673,000 is where it levels out after you've funded the debt service reserve. So
 1:07:15  that's where I was saying that there's some savings from the last case to this case of between 932,000 and this uh decrease of 250,000 down to 673,000.
 1:07:28  But we're not able to capitalize uh use that use that amount to offset any of the operating increases because of our
 1:07:36  agreement that was made in the last rate case.
 1:07:41  So overall this shows the revenue requirements that in blue is the operating expenses. Uh and then we also
 1:07:50  have here the taxes other than income taxes, your funding of the debt service reserve, your paying back of the loan,
 1:07:57  your building up of the operating uh fund balance. So that your overall your revenue requirements is uh 8,73,000.
 1:08:07  After accelerating your revenues, you have 6,570,000.
 1:08:12  So that's a deficit of 1.6 million, which is talking about the 24.98% rate increase needed.
 1:08:23  This is just showing how the rates were enacted.
 1:08:27  Back to your question of when phase one went into effect, that's the first column, October of 2023. You had the
 1:08:34  phase two of January 2025. Phase three is going into effect here in January 1st 2026. And then we had phase four and
 1:08:42  phase five following two years. And so the accelerated and incremental phase amount of the increase is that your u
 1:08:51  metered rates per month will be $5.50 per 100 cubic feet. There's a monthly customer charge of $745
 1:08:59  and your monthly fire protection charge for a 5/8 inch and 34 inch connection is $510.
 1:09:08  So what question? Yes. Monthly customer charge. Yes.
 1:09:13  That's just flat minimum just to have the service. Is that what I'm understanding? Correct.
 1:09:22  Why would we need to increase that?
 1:09:25  um if we're going to increase the rate, right? So, we're doing an across the board rate increase. Your last time you had Stantech come in and do a cost of
 1:09:34  service study and created these cost allocations to each of these items. So, we need to increase everything across
 1:09:41  the board by the same percentage since we're not doing a cost of service study.
 1:09:47  So, it's not just the water that's water flow that's being that went up. It's also the allocated cost of how they did
 1:09:54  the cost of service study into that line item. So, whatever went into creating that charge, those cost items also went
 1:10:02  up. So, we just AC across the board increase everything.
 1:10:08  I might point out though that that's actually a benefit to our customers to have changed uh to most of our residential customers to have changed
 1:10:16  the rate structure from the previous agreement simply because um at that time prior to 2023 the more water you use the
 1:10:25  cheaper that it got. And the folks who were using the minimum amount let's say one cubic foot um they were being
 1:10:33  charged a minimum of three cubic feet because that was what the minimum charge. So now the minimum charge is based on the the monthly customer
 1:10:41  charge, that flat rate, but then their actual usage. So if someone only uses that one unit, they're only going to get
 1:10:48  charged for that one unit. Um most of our customers use three to four, our residential customers, that is. Um and
 1:10:57  so the the bulk of the increase is actually going to rest a little heavier on the indust industrial customers
 1:11:06  because prior to this um they had been highly favored uh for their because the water got cheaper the more that they use.
 1:11:16  So prior to 2023 were there was there not a base monthly customer charge?
 1:11:21  You just got charged a minimum three units.
 1:11:26  I'd have to go back, but I I thought it was a it was a smaller charge. It was a I believe it was just a Well, sorry. I' I'd have to go back and look. That might
 1:11:34  have just been a minimum charge plus your fire protection at that point. Okay. Thank you.
 1:11:42  So, the next page shows a typical monthly bill analysis.
 1:11:47  And as Robin said, most of your customers are using between three and four units. So we're talking about their
 1:11:54  current charge right now for a four unit user is $23.40.
 1:12:00  In 2026, it's going up by $130. And what we're proposing after this rate increase, it would increase by just under $10 at 9.83.
 1:12:14  And then if you would, I sent you another item, the rate survey.
 1:12:22  So, we create a rate survey of all the communities that are uh 25,000 population or or greater and there's 39
 1:12:31  communities. So, if you go down a little bit, you'll see that Marian is currently at 27 out of 39 with their 2026 rate.
 1:12:40  And what we're proposing is that you would be moving up to at at 18. So about in the middle, you
 1:12:48  would land right in the middle. So I want to point out also those top communities, those are all served by Indiana American and they all have the
 1:12:56  same rate. So Indiana American charges everyone the exact same rate. So that goes back to the question Mr.
 1:13:03  Klein that you asked. um if if there you what what are our options and if if we were to have to come to the point of a
 1:13:11  sale which um for a number of reasons I would not be in favor of but not the least of which is that would be the new
 1:13:19  rate uh instantaneously they've not approached me I'm not I'm
 1:13:29  I'm not aware of of anyone else I'm not aware that they've approached
 1:13:38  And I would also just note all the communities that have a two next to them, they have phasing in of their rate increases as well. And so those are all
 1:13:47  needing to be updated for their 2026 rate. So you're where you would land is probably a little bit lower than what's being shown there.
 1:14:00  How are these other cities towards the bottom maintaining at such a
 1:14:07  low rate if chemicals and salaries are going up? I mean, South Bend, I know they probably
 1:14:14  have more users, but they have more employees.
 1:14:18  Um, they surely have a higher cost of living. So, how how are they maintaining? Do you have customers
 1:14:25  like Marian that are having the same problems with us as us?
 1:14:32  There has I mean there is a lot of rate cases going on. I actually live in Planefield which is at the lowest and I just received something in the mail today that my rates are going up and
 1:14:41  they hadn't had a rate increase since 2009. I'm going to be looking into that.
 1:14:45  Um but I do know Lafayette has a water rate case pending right now at the IURC.
 1:14:51  Uh, Columbus has phased in their rate increases. So, they are also going to be seeing an increase. You see that two right next to it. I should put a two
 1:14:59  next to Fort Wayne. They just filed a rate case. So, you you aren't alone in filing rape cases. There's a lot of rape cases going on at this moment.
 1:15:14  What happens if we agree to send this to be reviewed by
 1:15:21  the state and they agree that we should increase it and we choose not to, does that cause issues down the road?
 1:15:32  Well, I guess my assumption is that if it's approved uh to go forward for the request that it kind of stands that it
 1:15:39  would be approved once they've processed it. Um because as that not to exceed number um the return visit would be more
 1:15:48  of a true up. This is what they said. Um but but with the approval happening, yes, we're going to do it. We just need
 1:15:57  to wait and see what that final number is.
 1:16:05  So, I guess my question is if it goes to the IURC and they come back and say that uh you can only raise it 25%, are you
 1:16:13  going to be insolvent? Because you told me that you're possibly going to run out in cash if you don't get this rate increase.
 1:16:21  What what it does is that you you get a certain revenue requirement and so there might be changes because we'll settle
 1:16:29  with them that they don't believe the salaries and wages or they come back with a different number for salaries and wages and so we'll settle likely at a
 1:16:37  number just just below we would hope so no I'm not insulted uh if if they come back I'd say no it's 23% they're just
 1:16:45  they get very much more precise with the way that they calculate it but then also that li it it limits you to that's when
 1:16:55  Robin and her team will manage the money they will build up their operating funds. They might have to delay or decide when they're going to do capital
 1:17:03  items based on when they'll actually have the funds come in.
 1:17:08  Okay. And does your board recommend this? I mean, I haven't heard anything from what the board says or what the board recommended or what the board
 1:17:16  approved or I mean, is are they favorable on this or Yes. In order for us to approach the council, the board had to pass a
 1:17:24  resolution that agreed upon these same numbers that you're being presented with now.
 1:17:30  The vote was unanimous to to go forward with this.
 1:17:42  Okay. As we're trying to wrap this up, any last questions or information that we want them to come back to us with?
 1:17:54  Okay.
 1:17:56  Can I ask one question for the sake of the city council meeting coming up?
 1:18:00  Would you like us to go back through this entire report again? Okay.
 1:18:07  And could you when we do that, could you just have the numbers more precise on the salary?
 1:18:16  Now I'm not only maybe I'm not confused, now I just have different information,
 1:18:24  but then now I don't trust the information. So I don't know like I don't know what to trust what I'm hearing now. So if you could get some
 1:18:32  hard numbers, present some hard facts um because I just I want to trust with
 1:18:39  the information that's given to me. Does that make sense for the meeting? That'd be great. what you just said was pretty
 1:18:47  much a good paraphrase of the road I note myself that sounds like we simply want more information
 1:18:54  and that I well for me personally I'm not in a real comfortable position making a
 1:19:03  hard and fast decision right now with what we've heard.
 1:19:09  Not that there's smoke and mirrors. I just I don't know. That's my thought. Maybe
 1:19:16  I'm missing something, but you kind of paraphrased it. Well,
 1:19:28  anything else from anyone?
 1:19:33  Okay, we will go ahead and close the meeting. Did you guys want to
 1:19:41  I know send it back with any or you can always do no recommendation.
 1:19:48  You want to send it back to the council tonight? Technically is a committee. It's got to come back.
 1:19:55  I would move my motion would be that we send it to the council with no recommendation.
 1:20:13  That's not I mean that's not a thumbs up. It's not a thumbs down. It's simply no recommendation because we just don't know what we want to know yet.
 1:20:32  Any feedback on that, Eric? It's what it sounds. Yes, it was. Let me turn your mic on too, Eric.
 1:20:39  Yeah. Question. Was that a motion? You answered. Um I What's the time frame on I mean by
 1:20:49  when do we have to have this all decided by?
 1:20:53  It would be our hope that we could present this to the IURC before the close of the year in order to avoid that
 1:21:00  penalty of having a rate reduction because of the debt service management situation that we mentioned earlier.
 1:21:08  I'll add on that too. I mean, it's it's you can send this back to council for the meeting tonight and at the meeting tonight you can send it back to
 1:21:16  committee just so you know in case if you wanted more time.
 1:21:20  And my feeling is if we I mean we want it to come back because we've got a public hearing and that may give us some
 1:21:28  additional feedback from the public. Um and somebody may say something none of us have thought about.
 1:21:41  I'll second the motion then. Um okay. But um I guess a question I would have is uh the the process of you going
 1:21:48  to the IRC, are they not going to ask you much the same questions that we're asking you? And you don't you have to defend it in much the same way or is it a different process?
 1:21:58  Yes, we do. We end up writing pre-filed testimony and submitting our report. We spent all the backup to them. They go
 1:22:06  through the office of the utility consumer counselor will go through it in very much detail just as you guys are
 1:22:13  asking for. Um and then uh they'll actually make a site visit. We'll give them a lot of information. So it'll be
 1:22:21  over that's why the time period takes a while is that we go through the process with them. They explore all the numbers
 1:22:30  in the general ledger um and scrub through all the information as well.
 1:22:42  Okay, we've got a motion and a second. So, all in favor?
 1:22:47  I I Okay, so we will send that back to council without a recommendation. Um, we
 1:22:55  are expecting additional information on those reports that we asked for. Um, and then can you forward this to all of us
 1:23:04  as well, this presentation, please? Um, and then we'll have the public hearing tonight and decide from there if it we need to do further research.
 1:23:16  Okay. Thank you for all attending.
 1:23:18  Thank you so much. See you guys in a minute.